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Full transcript below.
Trans women are very stereotypically visible in Japan. We see them on TV and in commercials, often as examples of beauty to aspire to. In this episode, Tiffany gives us an insight into her authentic journey of growing up in the staunchly Catholic nation of the Philippines to how she found her way to being the inspirational woman she is today. We are also very excited to welcome Tiffany Rossdale to the Diversity Rocks Innovation! series and to announce that she will be joining enjoi Diversity and Innovation as an enjoi Educator. She is going to be a great addition to our team!
In this episode you’ll hear:
- How Tiffany survived her childhood in the Philippines staying with different relatives every year
- Moving to Japan and discovering the trans-women community
- How Tiffany transitioned in a time with minimal information online
- Tiffany’s experience of discrimination when traveling to the United States
- The challenge Tiffany faces of officially changing her gender and keeping nationality
About Tiffany:
Tiffany Rossdale went from being a provocative top trans “Showgirl” in Tokyo’s Shinjuku red light district to a powerhouse in the “Ginza Hostess” scene. Leveraging her experiences in both of these worlds, she went on to become for many, the “Queen of Tokyo’s nightlife” before freeing herself of the toxicity of the underground party scene and making a drastic change to a daytime career doing PR, Marketing and Sales. She has become a force for positivity, growth and self-improvement in the lives of the people around her; all while working through the process of her own mental and physical transition and transformation.
Connect with Tiffany:
Website: https://www.tiffanyrossdale.com/
Tiffany’s Podcast (Available on any music app): https://www.tiffanyrossdale.com/podcast
Breakfast With Tiffany Show Official Facebook Page ~ https://www.facebook.com/breakfastwithtiffanyshow
Instagram ~ https://www.instagram.com/TokyoHottie
Official Facebook Page ~ https://www.facebook.com/OfficialTiffanyRossdale
Connect with Jackie:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/enjoidiversityandinnovation
https://www.facebook.com/jackiefsteelephd
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackie-f-steele-phd/
Diversity Rocks Innovation Vol. 15 Tiffany Rossdale Transcript
Jackie: Welcome to Diversity Rocks Innovation volume 15. My name is Jackie Steele, Canadian political scientist, living and teaching here in Japan and the CEO and founder of enjoi Diversity and Innovation. enjoi is a Japan based global facing company, working in English and Japanese to support leaders, leaders and corporations who really want to build diversity positive workplaces and corporate cultures.
We believe and we know that diversity rocks innovation, but we’re really interested in inclusive innovation that amplifies and supports equality, and that powers our people systems for our personal wellbeing and also for the collective good, for the long game of democracy. So this live stream that we host every week shines a spotlight on the beautiful diversity of enjoi thought partners who are bringing change in their own ways, in their own industries, in their own sectors through inclusive gender equal and diversity positive leadership and role modeling.
The live stream is hosted each week for a session of thought partnering out loud with me, and we just show up as two human beings minus the business cards and all of the different sempai – kohai hierarchies of age or gender or nationality. And we just want to show up to share our expertise, our worldviews, and relate to engage in lifelong learning with one another.
As a giving and a receiving. So my guest for today is a wonderful enjoi thought partner and friend Tiffany Rossdale. I met her several years back through an inspirational speaker series called ‘Find your element’. That was at the time hosted and curated by another friend. Aya McCrindleI. And over the last three, four years, I’ve had so much joy getting to know and to collaborate with Tiffany.
And so it is my distinct pleasure to welcome Tiffany to this edition, volume 15 of Diversity Rocks Innovation. Thank you for joining me, Tiffany.
Tiffany: Thank you so much for having me. It is an honor to be here on your new platform, empowering women and making a difference. But not just for women, but for everyone.
And I always love being with you. As I always learn a lot from you.
Jackie: Well likewise, and I think this is really interesting because in some ways we started this conversation when you invited me to be on your podcast, which I love, and it’s called Breakfast with Tiffany. What an amazing, and just a wonderful wonderful name and theme for your podcast.
And so it was the first time that I really, I guess in some ways, was removing just my political scientist hat for part of that talk. And really we did a deep dive into some of the more personal things, how I think about my identity. And I thought, that’s really something that I’d never really done.
I had never maybe been asked those questions. And since you were working and interested in LGBTQ wellness, I thought, I need to start sharing my diversity story. Another shout out to Catherine O’Connell actually, who really said to me, I’d be interested in hearing your diversity story, if you haven’t shared it.
And because I was observing I hadn’t really talked about it in terms of how it impacts my lived reality. So thank you for inviting me to that show and helping me begin that process of sharing publicly about how my identities work out and conjugate and then, the live stream in some ways, it’s paid forward this inspiration around thought partnering out loud, but really a deep dive into the radical individuality of all my thought partners and how amazing they are and complex, and the rich diversity of each of those individuals. So we can do a deep dive into, in Canada, what we would call an intersectional approach to diversity.
So I’m excited to share all the complexities of this beautiful human being called Tiffany Rossdale, who I’ve had such a pleasure to get to know, and I learn from constantly. So Tiffany, so we can share and help our audience also share in the learning journey with us about your experiences.
Would you be able to walk us through maybe beginning with, who you are and what are the core parts of yourself? And where were you born and raised? How does that impact who you are today?
Tiffany: Thank you for that question, Jackie. So I was born and raised in the beautiful country of the Philippines and my parents were never married.
They got separated when I was about six, seven years old. And I can still clearly remember when my father and mother were fighting as my mother was screaming out loud to my father and I was so innocent and naive and I didn’t understand what was happening between them. So all I remember is that I was crying, watching them fighting, and I also have two younger siblings.
We were always close to each other as we, the three of us, knew that there’s no one else that will understand our pains and struggles. So right before my mother left for Japan, she left us to our grandparents and there were a few of my cousins living with them. And my relatives were always around. So my grandparent’s house was like a compound where all the family lives together and right next to each other. And I think most families are like that, especially in the province areas of the Philippines before we moved to Manila.
Jackie: So really a multi-multi generational, but extended relatives and families, all living together, which is even more multi family than the Japanese sort of multi-generational approach of a household given that also your aunts and uncles and cousins were also nearby. It’s interesting.
Tiffany: Yes, that is so true. And so when my mom left, we were taken care of by my grandparents and it didn’t last for a long time. I was very young and I knew way back then that I was different, that I was unique.
And one story that I would love to share is when I was about seven or eight years old. And my cousin was playing this music of Madonna, “Like a Virgin”, and I love that song and I’ve always wanted to dance. I have loved dancing ever since I was a kid. And then my grandpa saw me performing and I grabbed all the towels that I have. I wore it like a wig and then some were like a dress. And he, when he found me, he was so mad, he was so angry and he literally just whipped me and punished me and put me in a room and left me to kneel for an hour. With the salt on the floor while I was kneeling.
So that was one of the most unforgettable moments that I had, that I thought that being me, different, wasn’t accepted at all.
Jackie: And we know that a lot of kids like to play dress up and dance around and engage in that. And certainly I guess how we send those messages so early on to children about what you’re allowed to be or not be because of the body that you were born into and that masculinity is supposed to play out one way and femininity is supposed to be another way.
And you’re early on scolded, reprimanded or punished even as your experience suggests. That you were punished for wanting to get up and dance, like a child, and dress up and experiment with all of the different facets of what I guess, humanity entails. You didn’t know. It’s not like you were having some agenda, it was just children, they do those things, they explore, and that’s what they’re supposed to be doing at that age. Obviously, to figure out and to have fun frankly, you don’t ever think it, you’re just wanting to dance and dress up like Madonna, right? Like she’s a rock star who wouldn’t want to?
So I know you mentioned to me that your grandparents were very strict and very kind of old school in their attitudes and I suppose very religious as well. So did that have some kind of an impact on their finding this behavior and wanting to punish you right away for being, for expressing things that maybe they thought you should not be expressing?
Tiffany: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. Because the Philippines is a very Catholic country. And I think my grandpa and my grandma were raised back during the world war. So they’re very strict. I didn’t know this. I just found out about all this later in life. And I thought that’s the only way they knew how to raise kids. And I thought maybe that’s how also my parents, my mom and my mom’s siblings who got raised through the way they were doing that.
Jackie: You mentioned that your mom had left for Japan to, I think, work and your dad was not who you were living with at the time. Can you give us some context on why it was that you were having to stay with your grandparents and I guess aunts and uncles to be raised as opposed to your father? I realize you mentioned they separated, but is there, how did that play out?
Tiffany: So my mom and my dad, when they got separated, obviously my mom took us from my dad because my dad couldn’t raise us because my dad didn’t have the financial stability.
His job has always been a security guard and obviously he couldn’t raise us. And there’s three of us. So my mom took care of us. But obviously when my mom was leaving for Japan, she couldn’t take care of us. So she asked my grandparents to take care of us in the beginning.
Jackie: And she was going to work in Japan to support the family and send money home to you and the grandparents to support you.
Tiffany: Yes. That was what she was doing for the whole period. So I didn’t actually have the opportunity to be with my mom, live with my mom, and have her on my side. Maybe when I was really young, like four or five, but I’m still innocent, I don’t remember everything about it.
Jackie: And I suppose that’s also the case for your younger siblings. You were six and they were four and three at the time when she was moving to Japan to have a job that could provide for you.
Tiffany: Yes, they were two years younger than me. My younger sister is two years younger than me and my other younger brother is four years younger than me. So they’re really young when my mom left.
Jackie: Right when they were basically no longer were living with either parent. And then all of a sudden, all three of you are living with grandparents and extended family. And you described how that was not easy. And that in some ways, after staying with your grandparents, you also changed to be living with different aunts and uncles. Was it partly because your grandparents had trouble raising you because it was too strict an environment or they felt they couldn’t handle the three young children? It’s still a lot of children to be grandparents and having three very young children.
Tiffany: During staying with my grandparents, we ended up, obviously I couldn’t stay long. I was crying. We were crying a lot. We were telling our other relatives about what’s going on because we couldn’t speak to our mom.
We couldn’t tell our mom what’s going on with our situation. And then eventually she would get that from my aunts, my uncles, my cousins, and she would come back to get us. And then she would find another place for us to be, to be taken care of. So my mom has a big family. There are probably seven siblings.
So each and every one of them, like every year we got transferred to different relatives and every different parts of school, I mean like school, like we go to different school, we’ve lived in different areas, we’ve lived with different people, every year was so different the whole entire time during my early young age.
Jackie: And I guess for the benefit of some of our listeners who are joining in, who may not be connecting the dots on things. If we circle back to this very important moment in your early childhood, you’re a six year old and at the time you’re a six year old little boy. And your grandparent, your grandfather is very angry to see you dressed up and dancing around like Madonna.
And given his upbringing and his values, decides to punish you by putting you in another room to kneel in salt, because it eats away at the skin, as a punishment reminder for the hour that you have to stay there and kneel and be punished. These moments that mark our identities, and our sense of what we can be or what we are not allowed to be.
I know that you were moving around from household to different aunts and uncles who were doing their best, to shoulder the responsibility of the three children for your mom and dad, with your mom sending money home to support and give support financially to them to support you.
But you also mentioned there wasn’t a sense of psychological safety in those homes, that you didn’t feel like you had parents that you really could talk to about what you were going through at the time and the questionings that you were having about who you were. Can you share a little bit about that and then how ultimately the next, from 6 to 16, when you finally ended up living with your dad, how did that play out and how did you manage to find, when did you find support to be able to talk about what you were experiencing?
Tiffany: My mother said the reason why the other relatives wanted to take care of us is because they knew that they’re going to be, their financial stability is going to be taken care of by my mom as well.
So my mother sends money to anyone who takes care of me and my siblings. And what happens though, not sure what is the reason, but they always treat us not nice at all. We were bullied and were treated like house helpers most of the time. So my mother would put us to private schools, but the lifestyle we had was not matched to the schools that we went to and imagine that all the kids were fancy and their school stuff, their lunch boxes, and all of that.
And while having me, the cheap stuff. So snacks or foods that I have, because they don’t want to spend a lot of money for that. While knowing that as well, that my mother is sending enough money for me and my siblings for the expenses and the schools. So they never really spend it to give it to us. So I think it’s because they always, also they always warn us, scare us to not say anything to my mom about the situation or we will get punished. So they will always threaten me and my siblings, so nothing we could do. And the only way I knew was to tell my father. So what my dad did is he would visit sometimes every now and then.
And he would, like he would talk to us and then he would take me out. And that’s the only time that I can talk to him and tell him everything. And I was always crying and telling him that I couldn’t live with them anymore. We want to be out. We want to be with you, but obviously with his situation as a security guard, not be able to, take care of us, he would just always tell me, just wait.
And he was basically saying that to me every time and I was just like, I can’t wait, we can’t wait anymore because we want, we couldn’t handle all this thing going on. And finally I think after doing so many times that I escape and then trying to find him, cause he would give me his address and I would look for him.
Imagine I’m a very young age. I was still in grade school. I would escape from my relatives’ houses. And then I would just go by myself, right? All this, public jeepneys and go, just to find my dad and to reach him and then tell him that I don’t want to go back and then just get my other siblings.
And we just want to be with you. So it came to the point that also my mum got very tired about we were doing this every time too. Cause she would always come back from Japan after a year and then not even in a year sometimes. And then she would say that if you want to live with your dad, that’s fine, but I’m not going to support you financially, whatever.
So live with him, do whatever you want. No support from me and that’s what happened. So my dad took care of us for, during my, I think I was already in high school when that happened. I was in a public school. I didn’t mind at all. We were living in a poor area in Manila. I didn’t mind at all, because for me and my siblings, we had the freedom to do whatever we wanted.
We didn’t have that freedom and we have, we also have the love from my dad, which is we didn’t have the love all the time when we were at my relatives and my mom wasn’t around as well.
Jackie: Were you in a position as the eldest, needing to also look after your younger siblings, when you were living with your dad and they’re in public school and you’re in a sector of Manila that maybe is less safe? So did you then have a lot more responsibility to take on?
Tiffany: Yes. I was trying to, but at the same time I was working on my gender identity because I couldn’t really show it. Even though we live with my dad, which is, he’s very understanding. I love my dad so much, but he would not approve of my gender identity.
He knew the fact that I was different, that I was acting different, that I wasn’t a normal boy. So we didn’t even have a discussion about it. I was busy taking care of myself, figuring out my own gender identity. So I couldn’t really a hundred percent take care of my siblings.
Although I’m the eldest so I have to be with them when my dad’s out, like working, doing his duties as a security guard. So I have to be with my siblings. So sometimes I would, I remember like I would cook like really simple stuff or heat, my dad would cook stuff and he would just leave it for us. And then, I’ll just reheat it and all that, at a very young age. So I was doing that.
Jackie: I know you, you mentioned that when you were about 16 and you’re in high school, you finally met some people who seemed more like you and who perhaps understood your gender identity and what you were going through. And this was in some ways through this love of dance again. And can you talk to me about the local cultural festivals that you and your dance team or dance troupe friends built?
Tiffany: Yeah, I was so lucky and blessed to have found friends at school when I was in high school. And some of them are around my age and some were a little bit older and they were all basically like me.
We don’t act and play like the boys and we all love dancing. So it’s like a group of us. We go to the parks and we do like public parks, we do rehearsing. The leader of that group, he would just say, let’s do this and let’s do choreography, and then let’s join a contest.
And I loved it because I can express myself more. And this was an escape place for me and a safe place for me, where I thought I can be who I am, the real me, and they will not judge me or hurt me. They were all accepting and I do the same for them. And now, ever since they’re really my closest friends who I can trust.
So we would go to contests, I guess we could call matsuri, like a festival, inevery town, we would join each contest for a dance troupe because in the Philippines it’s either dance, contest, singing contest, which is also popular, and also the beauty contest, which is the Miss Gay beauty contest. And I would see these beautiful women, trans women, joining the contest and that’s how it was so fast. And I’m like, wow, like these beautiful women and I thought, I think I want to be like them. So that’s how it probably all started to figure out my real gender identity.
Jackie: I think it’s so fascinating that there’s this very strict Catholic cultural identity in the Philippines and the laws and the gender norms, and yet at the local levels you’re rolling out; it’s called the Miss Gay contest. And you’re literally having, at these festivals, the Miss Gay contest, where we have trans women who are performing with dance troupes and other things. And it’s, as you mentioned, a festival. That families go to, kids enjoy, everyone participates in.
Such a contradiction that you would have this in such a Catholic, strict country. Like what explains this fascinating grassroots phenomenon? Is it in all parts of the Philippines or is it really specific to Manila?
Tiffany: It’s actually all parts of the Philippines because what they do, even that these transwomen are joining the contest, they would even join contest from like way, they would travel. It became, some of them, it became like a business for them, like a career for them to join the contest, because of course they would earn money if they win it. So it’s not just Manila, but it’s everywhere. So once they have that type of, once they have the festivals which happens to be like once a year.
So they would, the first thing that most of the organizers I think would do is to put on a Miss Gay beauty contest, which was odd, it’s a very Catholic country, but at the same time, they’re okay with it.
Jackie: And you’re at this point exploring and shifting your identity, you at six, I remember you mentioning that you asked your mom to buy you a Barbie doll and she flat out said absolutely not, that that’s not appropriate for a boy.
And you’re then, also getting in trouble from your grandpa for wanting to do dance and dress up like Madonna and enjoy that. And then later you are identifying that maybe you’re not completely like the other boys and you’re looking for a peer group. And who you finally do then find when you’re in high school, but you mentioned that at that point, because of in some ways, because yourself and your dance troupe, the members of that dance team, those boys are dressing in certain ways that are less masculine and they’re performing and dancing.
And so you would be bullied or called names. Because people assumed that you were gay and you’d be called names as a gay boy. So then there’s this shift in the identity of are you gay? Am I gay? And yet you mentioned to me, actually, it didn’t make sense really for them to call you gay because that’s not how you identified really, in terms of, it’s not about your sexual orientation, right? It was about your gender identity. Can you speak a little bit about the process of, the other boys and who you were friends with for some of them, they maybe were gay.
And in some ways identified with that identity, even if it wasn’t something that was accurate for yourself.
Tiffany: Yeah, it’s very fascinating because I was, amongst the group that I had, like these closest friends of mine back in high school, among all of them, I’m the only one who became a transwoman.
So all of them were just gay and one got married actually. So I’m not sure if he was confused about his gender identity, but he got married and he has a child. So I was the only one who completely transitioned myself into who I am now, after I left the Philippines to come here to Japan is where the transition happened.
And it’s funny because when I came here to Japan and came back to the Philippines and met them, they were all surprised. They would never, they never really expected that I’m going to fully, completely change everything.
Jackie: And when you arrived, you were invited by your mom and her then husband, your stepdad, to come and live with them in Japan and be supported to choose other options and explore other pathways for yourself.
Although you had been pursuing a programming degree, a computer programming degree in college in the Philippines, you actually made the choice to come across to Japan. Live finally, for the first time in many years with your mother and stepdad and experienced, I guess, your first work opportunity in a factory that didn’t really go very well and wasn’t your highest passion, right?
And so from there, you mentioned that you were looking for more freedom to explore who you really were and had conversations eventually with your mother on that point. What was that like?
Tiffany: So when I came here to Japan, I knew that I had to live with my mom and my stepdad, and I never had the opportunity. As I said earlier, I never had the opportunity to live with my mom. So I was actually feeling not sure about if I should go or not, because I don’t feel, I’m not sure if I’m going to feel safe, if she’s going to fully accept me and she would totally understand me. But then she told me that the only way that I can probably, cause I, she knows that I wanted to go to America and she told me that if you want to go to America too, if you come here in Japan and then you have proved that you’ve lived here in Japan. It’s easier for you to go to America instead of coming from the Philippines to America, because that’s going to be so difficult and I thought then maybe I should try.
So when I came to Japan, I lived with them and obviously I didn’t last for long, I didn’t even last for a year to stay with them because I expected that I’m not going to get along with my mom. And my dad, my stepdad was very, he was very nice. He was very understanding, but he didn’t know about me, about my gender identity. And when I was, while I was working at a factory that you mentioned, I told mom I can’t do this, I can do this anymore, I want to do something different.
And I asked her if she can take me to places where all these trans women are working. All these Filipina trans women are working. And most of them, they work in a kind of a cabaret show club type of place. And in the beginning she didn’t want to.
And later, she found out I was really stressing out about my situation in the factory. And then she told me, let’s go watch the show. And I felt so happy at that moment, because that moment was the moment that I thought that she was really fully accepting me as who I am. When we went there, when I saw, when I entered that cabaret place, it’s like going to a Disneyland and I saw all the girls and I was like, wow, I want to be here. I want to be part of this.
And I was just blown away with all these beautiful women. And they’re all like, oh, if you want to be, you’re going to be one like us, you should start doing everything. Start transitioning soon. And they’re giving my mom all this advice and my mom would be just like listening.
Obviously my mom didn’t know how to raise me. And she doesn’t have knowledge about what a trans woman should live or like how, it’s her first time going to that place too. So she was learning a lot and then she agreed to let me go to work in that type of place.
But she told me that I have to be separated from where they live, because she doesn’t want to let my stepdad know about that situation. So I separated with them and then she told me that just whenever you come visit, don’t wear girly clothes, just wear like what you are now and not come visit us if you’re going to be wearing makeup or whatever. So that was the deal. And I said, yeah, of course, I’m not going to go visit in makeup and all that.
And that’s how my transition started.
Jackie: And it’s a journey for you trying to get information and to find role models and to find women who are like you and who’ve been through it. And then how do you get there? You mentioned you’d started actually getting access to some of the transitioning hormone pills in the Philippines, but it only stayed at that level. And you couldn’t think about next steps. Here in Japan then you could have these next conversations with women who had been through it and who could mentor and give you that support on how do you find doctors?
And in Japan of course at this time, it’s all underground. It’s not regulated. It’s not necessarily safe. There’s no documentation of what these processes are happening underground. So it is, these are big decisions, right? About risks that you would be taking for your physical and mental health. So to have other people who have been through it and can give you that support emotionally and to just where you feel seen, you feel seen for the first time, in many ways by people who really understand you.
And at the same time, your mother who is trying to walk this balance juggling act of supporting you, but not knowing how to deal with it and share the information with your stepdad and being, trying to figure out what those boundaries are, but wanting to support, but also not able to support ultimately in who you are, and asking you to camouflage yourself if you come visit, right? And change the way you look when you come visit.
So you mentioned some of the advice you got around the transitioning process. And those real tough choices, right? The physical challenges. And maybe walk us through, if you could, some of those key pieces of advice that you got about where is it safe to have these operations done and what were your choices?
Tiffany: So back then, we just had all this information through people who actually did it. So that’s where they share their stories about like, how it happened, how it did. And here in Japan, there was this one sensei, there was one doctor who was doing this practice and like what you said, it’s not really a hundred percent legal.
It’s really underground, but he was the only one who can do it. So everyone goes to him. It’s either you go with him or you go to Thailand, which obviously Thailand, it has so many options. And I tried to figure out everything like what to do, but before I did my full transition, I did my breast implants, my facial surgeries and all that in the Philippines.
But in the Philippines it is also not a hundred percent. There are not many doctors either, there’s only one and he’s in the hospital. He can sign, he can give you certification and all that, that he was going to do it to you, if he’s really done the breast implants and all that. So I did my first transition in the Philippines and my full transition, I did it in Thailand because I thought Thailand had many options and I could be safer. And I’ve, I have had a few friends, close friends who did it there too, that they really told me that, and even showed me. So I felt okay, then I think I can do it if, if in that way.
Back then we didn’t have all this information online, but there’s a few, so you search some stuff online as well. And that’s how it went through my transition.
Jackie: And it really is, for so many within the LGBTQ community, but also in other communities, immigrant communities, it is really a sort of an underground space of mutual peer to peer support and knowledge transfer that you get through your communities.
Because there is marginalization around what you’re experiencing, because the services aren’t necessarily developed in these countries that are working from old fashioned assumptions, about which bodies are normal and what needs do we fulfill with our public health system?
And so we don’t have the full range of these supports. And I think, again, it’s fascinating that in the Philippines, this doctor working with the, and again, this very Catholic religious country and he’s in a hospital and yet he’s managing to be subversive, by offering services and making sure he’s giving all the legal certifications that prove the surgery is done.
Because you need proof of the surgeries for your end of things, for what you’re going through for your bodily transformations. You need it to be on record publicly. And yet I imagine he’s writing down completely other reasons as to why the surgery is being done, but it’s not due to a gender identity issue.
Right? He’s managing to carve out these gray zones. Which keeps it legal on paper, but not acknowledging the full extent of the reason for the surgeries. And you mentioned that, of course you need certificates to show, and certainly you’ve talked to me and I think it’s again, so illuminating to think about the impacts, from an immigration perspective that you mentioned you needed to have records of the physical changes you were undergoing because you were updating then your residency photo in Japan.
So although your residency card at the time, it was probably the foreign registration card, would need a photo but it would be in some ways out of misalignment with the legal sex listed on your card and you would need to have proof of these procedures that you’d had in the Philippines if ever you were asked.
When does that paperwork, when do you get asked for it? Who asks for that paperwork? Is it the immigration authorities? At what moment do you find that that was called into question for you?
Tiffany: So the moments that I always get asked is when I first traveled to America and in Japan, I didn’t really actually get a lot of questions, but in America the immigration, when you get in the immigration and then eventually they would see your photo and then sometimes they would notice your gender.
And of course my gender is still male and they would ask why is it male? And then I’d be like, I’m a transgender. And back then I would say transsexual, because there’s no transgender word back then, right?
I would say I’m a transsexual. And then they would be like, really? And then what they would do is they would take me to another room and have me there for an hour, doing all these interviews, asking you so many questions. What am I going to do in America? Am I going to work in America? What am I there for? Who am I visiting?
Even my phone, they would collect all this information, data so that they can. It’s too private. And because it was those moments that I wanted to go to America and just be fabulous. And I brought all my heels, my dresses, and all that.
So they would think that I would go there to work. And it happened not just one time. It happened several times and they would always ask me about that because my photo and my gender are always not a match and why.
Jackie: We often talk in the context of the United States about the excessive racial profiling and also religious, when we were around the events of 9-11, and then the profiling of anyone perceived to be maybe Muslim. But we often, don’t always talk openly about the fact that, of course, transgender individuals are also being very much profiled and I think it’s so offensive, frankly, and astonishing that the border patrol immigration officers would right there publicly ask you to explain, when you’ve got lines of people behind you, and they’re looking at your photo ID and notice the sexes in their minds, out of alignment as they think. And so they ask you right then and there, these questions?
Astonishing! Such a violation of such a private matter that the people behind you in line don’t need to know about. And those questions are supposed to be maintaining your privacy. But when there are marginalized identities, we often, the first thing we violate is we violate privacy, the right to privacy, right? By demanding answers to things that really don’t have, the people don’t have a right to, and that’s particularly the case, I think for also for transgender people.
And you mentioned that in Japan, you wouldn’t get questions. I find that interesting. So what was the reaction at the immigration counter in Japan?
Tiffany: I don’t know, like for them, I think it’s maybe they don’t notice or, cause they never really asked me. They would just look at my passport or whatever, and they just stamp me. They will never ask any, I only get questions when I’m on the phone. And for example, I’m giving information that for example, my travel agency, and then you say okay, here’s my real name and my gender is M right, and all that information.
And they’ll be like, in the beginning, is it you, like on the phone? Is it the person on the phone right now?
Jackie: Is this the same individual that’s speaking?
Tiffany: So I would be like yes. It’s me. Yeah. That’s the only thing that I get in Japan.
Jackie: They’re thinking, they’re expecting a more male speaking personality and you’re not sounding like a man on the phone to them?
Tiffany: I think so. Probably it’s because the way I spoke to them and then that’s how they ask.
Jackie: And thinking forward, I know that you’ve mentioned, because of your, of course, passport and nationality as a Filipino. It is not ever legally possible for you in the Philippines to do a legal change of your sex in your actual legal documents in the Philippines. It’s not something that is acknowledged or allowed or permitted. Whereas if you were to naturalize to be a Japanese national, that is actually something that is legally possible in Japan. Does that affect how you think about what you want to consider for your choices in the future?
Tiffany: Yes. Because if I’m going to change my gender identity, then I have to be a Japanese citizen and I have to surrender my Filipino passport. I’ve been thinking about whether it really has to be like that and continue on. And of course, if I changed my gender identity to what I’ve always wanted, I’ll be happy.
But at the same time I will lose my origin, my, being a Filipino because I still love my country. I love my country. I love Japan too, but not having Philippine, yeah, it just makes me think, but I want to do the process if that’s the only choice.
Jackie: And I think you, you put your finger on the really challenging piece. This is where the concept of intersectional diversity is, I think, really helpful in terms of weeding through these complexities. Our identities, our having multiple intersections of gender, of race, of the sex that we were legally labeled as at birth, of our religion, of our culture and languages we speak, of our gender identity, of our sexual orientation, whether we have abilities or disabilities, learning disabilities.
These different facets, they’re all combining to create this unique individuality. And it is frustrating, and I certainly experience this frustration too. Why should you have to give up part of your Filipino identity? On that side of things and your cultural heritage and sense of belonging to that country, your home country, to be able to access and fully have your gendered identity be legally acknowledged where you’re living and are an immigrant of, 20, 30 or more years here in Japan, because there’s only one possible nationality that you can hold under the Japanese law.
And I know there’s many people who managed to, in some ways, informally hold the second nationality off the record and the Japanese authorities don’t look into it. And so that’s just a, don’t ask, don’t tell policy. But I think certainly for certain countries they do look into it and make sure that you do surrender the other passport.
And so it’s unfortunate that we wouldn’t be able to hold these complexities together to be not punished in that way. And I think for many immigrants in Japan, who love their birth countries, feel a sense of connection to their birth countries, have children who they want to have a connection to those countries as well as a part of their children’s heritage, but also have been in Japan for many years.
And certainly myself, I count myself in that dynamic, would love to formally have the right to vote and participate in Japanese elections and to think about, and really be seen as a full member of this political community and of this nation, even if we also were born elsewhere and have a passport from that home country. It would be lovely to be able to accommodate that complexity of the nuances.
Cause we all are hybrid. We’re always hybrid in many ways in our identities. I would hope for you that, I guess the only solution is that maybe Japan shifts to dual nationality at some point, and then allows you to be having your Filipino passport, but to naturalize here in Japan and to do the legal change so you can change and have it recognized as female sex on your legal documents.
The law reform is challenging in Japan, and I think the Reiwa era and political leaders here are really struggling to find what is their, what do they want as their future definition of Japanese-ness? And who’s included in that? And how do they include long time immigrants, who aren’t just working here temporarily and then go home?
We’re here and we’ve been here and I think there’s been so much immigration to Japan informally through the back door, but it’s not legally, formally recognized fully yet. And it’s a challenge. It’s certainly a challenge. If you had a lesson or a learning to share with our audience and our listeners about all of your journey as an individual, and you can focus on the pieces that matter, that you want to talk about today and, or, your message in terms of hopes for Japan, what are you focusing on and what would be the one thing you’d love to have listeners take away and think a little bit more about?
Tiffany: Thank you for that question, Jackie.
I think, my final message to everyone watching this right now; transgender like me, are just normal people who also want to live our lives like many of you, to have a safe space. And I think I’m lucky enough to live in this amazing country where I don’t have to think about my safety. And I think Japan is amazing with that.
And all that individuals need is love and support and care. And just like me, also my fellow brothers and the LGBTQI plus community, everyone needs it too. And I want to leave with one last thought, if we can come to love and respect and embrace our own uniqueness, whatever that is then maybe we can come to respect the uniqueness of everyone around us.
I am so grateful that we are now living in an era where we can speak and discuss all these important issues. And my hope is I can see and experience one day that being a transgender is just a normal thing and not an issue anymore. I would love to see that in our generation. I want to represent my community and my purpose is to be a voice for my community.
And I also want to educate people about my community, the tribe. And lastly, happy pride month to all you, my brothers and sisters in the community! And you Jackie too. And Jackie, by the way, I just wanted to say that I’m really grateful for this, for you and your team for making this platform, truly inspiring thought provoking conversations.
And I always learn a lot from you and I applaud you for doing such amazing initiatives, empowering us all. So really thank you so much. Arigato gozaimasu.
Jackie: Arigato gozaimasu, kochira koso. [Thank you, same here]I think that’s such an inspiring offering to the community. I love that we can, first start really accepting our own uniqueness, our unique individuality.
And if we can’t do that, then how do we manage to accept it in others and find a space of generosity there. When I think about, and I talk about radical individuality, I think that’s exactly what I’m trying to shine a light on and people like you with your leadership. I know you’ve had such an incredible journey of really only starting to talk about these issues openly in the last three, four years.
And now you’re out with your own podcast and supporting LGBTQ wellness and a coach and offering coaching services. And I think really such an incredible role model here in Japan for these challenges. And also being able to share from the perspective of what you’ve experienced as an immigrant to Japan, also living through all of that on top of the gendered identities that, and a very challenging home environment that you also managed to navigate through.
I am so inspired and in awe of what you have managed, to find resilience, and to work through, and to build for yourself and to not be downtrodden by all of the things you’ve faced.
You’ve just managed to find ways to overcome and find your inner power. And that’s so amazing to see, Tiffany, and so inspiring. So thank you for a lovely sharing of all of your complex realities and individualities and uniqueness. So much for the listeners to delve into. And I hope they’ll listen to it more than once so that they can really grapple with all of that complexity. So thank you, Tiffany.
Tiffany: Thank you. Thank you, Jackie.
Jackie: And I didn’t say again back at you for happy pride, as a queer identifying, certainly a complex person on that front too, that people often don’t understand. Certainly I’m very grateful for my tribe and who’s been with me in Canada and also in Japan, understanding these realities and complexities.
So definitely happy pride month. Next week tune in, we will be featuring Darren Menabney, who is a very good friend and colleague to the Canadian chamber of commerce. And he is a global communication and creativity consultant and has some inspiring learnings to share about global communications and how to make it work within a Japanese corporation amidst all of that multi national identities and different language communities within that same space.
So tune in, thank you everyone for joining.